Giles/Angel (BTVS and ATS)
Aug. 27th, 2004 11:14 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
stakebait.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
ship_manifestoTitle: Enemies Make the Best Friends
Author: Mer
Spoilers: through both series
First off, stating the obvious: shipping Angel/Giles is not about finding the subtext on your screen. The guys barely spoke to each other until the Big Traumatic Events, after which... they barely spoke to each other, but differently. A writer who's looking to do a canon continuation has about three moments of eye-contact to work with, tops, and they all happened seasons ago.
Second – what about those Big Traumatic Events? How could anybody sane pair Giles with Angel after Angelus tortured him and killed his girlfriend?
Well for me, that's the point.
Before that happened, Angel and Giles only had a few things in common. Beyond the obvious (male, from the British Isles, much older than the Scoobies) they were much less innocent than the Scoobies were at that time, with blood on their hands that they were trying to both hide and make up for, and unsavory companions from the old days that they still had a bit of a soft spot for – though not enough to choose the wrong side.
And, of course, they had love of Buffy. But before Angelus came back, to my eyes they were running on parallel tracks, without much reason to intersect.
Angelus changed all that. Now they've collided with a bang. In his wake, Giles has strong feeling about Angel that are only hinted at in canon – anger, hatred, resentment, even fear – tempered by the knowledge that it wasn't souled Angel that did those things, and therefore the question of how much it is just to hold him to account for them is open to debate.
On the one hand, Giles and Angel appear to agree that he is supposed to atone for his soulless crimes – on the other, Giles gives the returned Angel more help and trust than he "deserves" in acknowledgment that the man before him would not do what he remembers. That inner conflict in Giles – between roiling emotions he hasn't, after the initial outburst, expressed, and a sense of justice and maybe even pity – can make for great stories.
Especially when it's matched by the inner conflict we saw much more of once Angel moved to his own series – the fact that while he regrets his actions, Angel himself still enjoys causing pain, and some parts of him remember it fondly, and even miss it.
While it was never brought up in the context of Giles specifically, it seems entirely plausible to me that Angel remembers torturing Giles with pleasure – which would, of course, only add to his guilt and paralyzing self-consciousness when forced to interact with him. We saw a little of that, when Angel returned to Giles' house in the Thanksgiving episode and on other occasions, but there's much more there to bring out.
What canon did not address at all with Giles, is the fact that torture can in some ways be a deeply intimate, though twisted, act. Maybe they didn't bring this up on the show because it would be too much homo-eroticism, or because it's far more controversial to address this with a human than it is with a vampire (Dru and Spike both play out this theme).
Maybe they didn't address it because even though Angel is so much older than Giles, he looks younger in a way that might ick some viewers – or network executives – out. Or maybe just because the Scoobies were still too young at that point, and still too much in need of a father figure, for them to flirt so closely with the idea of Giles being that broken.
But with the greater freedom of fanfic, it strikes me as a small step to take to say that Angelus must have gained, by watching Giles' reactions, some degree of intimate knowledge of where his buttons are and how to push them. And whether he uses it or not, that knowledge is still in Angel's head, and they both know it.
Whether that's seductive or infuriating or both, whether Giles wants to reclaim that control or give it up or punish Angel for having it or deny it, depends on how you read his characterization. There are a dozen places we could go from here, if not a hundred.
And given what we now know Giles himself is willing to do – kill Ben, kill Dawn, kill Spike – it seems reasonable to speculate that his own dark side gave him some insight into how Angelus works in return. Insight that in the short term allowed him to resist as long as he did, and in the long term might create a reluctant kinship between them in Giles' mind – or a determination to repudiate that by drawing a line in the sand.
Plus, there's the unfairness that Angel has become, by that torture, a much more central figure in Giles' life than the reverse. And there's the unacknowledged power that Giles has over Angel, as one of his few living victims, to forgive.
To me, Giles/Angel is a largely unexplored variation on the classic relationship conflicts Mutant Enemy does so well: Buffy/Faith, the dark twin whose bond can be repulsed or accepted. Faith/Wesley, Angel/Wesley, Spike/Buffy -- forgiving the unforgivable, or not forgiving it, but finding a way to move on, and maybe even trust. Spike/Angel, the complicated past that keeps intruding on the present. Buffy/Angelus, Giles/Ethan, Spike/Buffy -- the strange intimacy that comes from being enemies, knowing each other better than anyone who stands outside that circle. Angelus/Dru, Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.
And in season 5 Angel, there's the additional conflict that Giles has apparently given up on Angel fighting the good fight. If that's true, why, and how does Angel feel about it? If it's not, why did Andrew say it? And what does Giles think of Angel's final choice?
Giles/Angel is seldom a happy pairing. At best, it's a story of overcoming – and accepting – a terrible past to make something new and better. More often, it's a moment of release or understanding, bittersweet in itself and not leading to anything more together – though perhaps a better peace apart.
In its darkest hours, it's a replaying and exaggeration of that past, destroying themselves and each other in the process. But any which way, it's a pairing for people who love conflict, internal and external, and characters who are estranged but bound together by the same defining event.
Unfortunately I wasn't smart enough to save links to all the Giles/Angel ficlets I've been asking for whenever someone takes requests. But for a great example of a Giles/Angel story that addresses these issues, I recommend Lights Out, by Penknife.
Author: Mer
Spoilers: through both series
First off, stating the obvious: shipping Angel/Giles is not about finding the subtext on your screen. The guys barely spoke to each other until the Big Traumatic Events, after which... they barely spoke to each other, but differently. A writer who's looking to do a canon continuation has about three moments of eye-contact to work with, tops, and they all happened seasons ago.
Second – what about those Big Traumatic Events? How could anybody sane pair Giles with Angel after Angelus tortured him and killed his girlfriend?
Well for me, that's the point.
Before that happened, Angel and Giles only had a few things in common. Beyond the obvious (male, from the British Isles, much older than the Scoobies) they were much less innocent than the Scoobies were at that time, with blood on their hands that they were trying to both hide and make up for, and unsavory companions from the old days that they still had a bit of a soft spot for – though not enough to choose the wrong side.
And, of course, they had love of Buffy. But before Angelus came back, to my eyes they were running on parallel tracks, without much reason to intersect.
Angelus changed all that. Now they've collided with a bang. In his wake, Giles has strong feeling about Angel that are only hinted at in canon – anger, hatred, resentment, even fear – tempered by the knowledge that it wasn't souled Angel that did those things, and therefore the question of how much it is just to hold him to account for them is open to debate.
On the one hand, Giles and Angel appear to agree that he is supposed to atone for his soulless crimes – on the other, Giles gives the returned Angel more help and trust than he "deserves" in acknowledgment that the man before him would not do what he remembers. That inner conflict in Giles – between roiling emotions he hasn't, after the initial outburst, expressed, and a sense of justice and maybe even pity – can make for great stories.
Especially when it's matched by the inner conflict we saw much more of once Angel moved to his own series – the fact that while he regrets his actions, Angel himself still enjoys causing pain, and some parts of him remember it fondly, and even miss it.
While it was never brought up in the context of Giles specifically, it seems entirely plausible to me that Angel remembers torturing Giles with pleasure – which would, of course, only add to his guilt and paralyzing self-consciousness when forced to interact with him. We saw a little of that, when Angel returned to Giles' house in the Thanksgiving episode and on other occasions, but there's much more there to bring out.
What canon did not address at all with Giles, is the fact that torture can in some ways be a deeply intimate, though twisted, act. Maybe they didn't bring this up on the show because it would be too much homo-eroticism, or because it's far more controversial to address this with a human than it is with a vampire (Dru and Spike both play out this theme).
Maybe they didn't address it because even though Angel is so much older than Giles, he looks younger in a way that might ick some viewers – or network executives – out. Or maybe just because the Scoobies were still too young at that point, and still too much in need of a father figure, for them to flirt so closely with the idea of Giles being that broken.
But with the greater freedom of fanfic, it strikes me as a small step to take to say that Angelus must have gained, by watching Giles' reactions, some degree of intimate knowledge of where his buttons are and how to push them. And whether he uses it or not, that knowledge is still in Angel's head, and they both know it.
Whether that's seductive or infuriating or both, whether Giles wants to reclaim that control or give it up or punish Angel for having it or deny it, depends on how you read his characterization. There are a dozen places we could go from here, if not a hundred.
And given what we now know Giles himself is willing to do – kill Ben, kill Dawn, kill Spike – it seems reasonable to speculate that his own dark side gave him some insight into how Angelus works in return. Insight that in the short term allowed him to resist as long as he did, and in the long term might create a reluctant kinship between them in Giles' mind – or a determination to repudiate that by drawing a line in the sand.
Plus, there's the unfairness that Angel has become, by that torture, a much more central figure in Giles' life than the reverse. And there's the unacknowledged power that Giles has over Angel, as one of his few living victims, to forgive.
To me, Giles/Angel is a largely unexplored variation on the classic relationship conflicts Mutant Enemy does so well: Buffy/Faith, the dark twin whose bond can be repulsed or accepted. Faith/Wesley, Angel/Wesley, Spike/Buffy -- forgiving the unforgivable, or not forgiving it, but finding a way to move on, and maybe even trust. Spike/Angel, the complicated past that keeps intruding on the present. Buffy/Angelus, Giles/Ethan, Spike/Buffy -- the strange intimacy that comes from being enemies, knowing each other better than anyone who stands outside that circle. Angelus/Dru, Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.
And in season 5 Angel, there's the additional conflict that Giles has apparently given up on Angel fighting the good fight. If that's true, why, and how does Angel feel about it? If it's not, why did Andrew say it? And what does Giles think of Angel's final choice?
Giles/Angel is seldom a happy pairing. At best, it's a story of overcoming – and accepting – a terrible past to make something new and better. More often, it's a moment of release or understanding, bittersweet in itself and not leading to anything more together – though perhaps a better peace apart.
In its darkest hours, it's a replaying and exaggeration of that past, destroying themselves and each other in the process. But any which way, it's a pairing for people who love conflict, internal and external, and characters who are estranged but bound together by the same defining event.
Unfortunately I wasn't smart enough to save links to all the Giles/Angel ficlets I've been asking for whenever someone takes requests. But for a great example of a Giles/Angel story that addresses these issues, I recommend Lights Out, by Penknife.
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Date: 2004-08-27 09:33 am (UTC)::toddles off to read::
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Date: 2004-08-27 09:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 09:34 am (UTC)The idea that the torture brought them closer in a twisted way is something I've accepted easily enough with Faith/Wes but never really applied to Giles/Angel.
And there's the unacknowledged power that Giles has over Angel, as one of his few living victims, to forgive.
Oh, that's very true! I think Angel was staggered by Giles' rejection of him - twice - in AtS S5.
Thanks for giving me a fresh way of looking at the pairing; I really enjoyed reading this.
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Date: 2004-08-27 09:44 am (UTC)the fact that Angel's the man who slept with Buffy.
*nods* That's a hard thing to get over. I can't buy a Giles who would sleep with Angel while he and Buffy are together. Personally I could buy a Giles who could get past it once that relationship is past, but I can see why many people might not.
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Date: 2004-08-27 09:53 am (UTC)I don't think Giles is a father figure to Buffy, but I do think he could plausibly have had a primitive, visceral reaction to knowing Angel had her first. And of course, it's that exact taunt that Angelus uses with Xander when they go head to head at the hospital, isn't it?
(Oh, don't know if it's me, but the fic link doesn't work?)
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:16 am (UTC)I can see the reaction you're suggesting, though personally I think the biggest bar would be what Buffy would think of Giles if she knew. But we've seen with Ben and with Spike and Wood that that consideration may pain Giles but it doesn't stop him.
Huh. The fic link works for me. But it's http://penknife.freeservers.com/lightsout.htm/ if you want to copy/paste.
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Date: 2004-08-27 09:57 am (UTC)I do have one slight quibble with you. I think that it isn't too difficult to postulate that Giles and Angel had a friendship of sorts early on. Giles found it "poetic" that a vampire would be in love with a Slayer and they clearly shared books with each other. Also, Angel had an invitation to Giles' flat, even though I don't recall ever seeing him there before. I always assumed that they did hang out a bit together during the summer between PG and WSWB. I agree that this tentative friendship was abandoned in the second season, which is unfortunate. It could have made the end of the season that much more powerful if it were established that they were buds.
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 10:25 am (UTC)And yes, it's entirely possible that I"m way too influenced by Jae Kayelle's work (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Crater/7657/fanfic.html). *grin* Ah, fanon. I love you so!
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:40 am (UTC)But then, it doesn't seem to me to need much explanation. There are lots of people who have been invited into my house at one time or another. Doesn't necessarily mean they are personal friends who come over regularly and hang out just the two of us.
At that time, they had no reason to think that Angel's soul was not permanent, and so no reason to think twice before inviting him in out of common politeness.
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Date: 2004-08-27 11:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 09:57 am (UTC)whether he uses it or not, that knowledge is still in Angel's head, and they both know it
*shivers* I'd elaborate this even further to highlight Giles' traditional role as knowledge-guy, and wonder about what that loss of power on his part would do to him.
Selfishly, I wish you'd delved a bit more into their conversation during "Pangs", because it's long struck me as dripping with the unspoken - their respective roles in Buffy's life as well as the passing of those roles, and their alliance against her in not telling her about Angel's presence is a magnificent shadow of Buffy's hiding of Angel after his return in s3.
Giles has apparently given up on Angel fighting the good fight
He does seem to have, yes - and it's not just Andrew's word (which is unreliable at *best*), but also that phone conversation between them after Fred's death - Giles appears entirely reluctant to help in any way whatsoever, and the way Angel speaks to him - even though it is born from desperation - is at once frustrated and heartless.
what does Giles think of Angel's final choice?
Gah. *hides under desk from fic ideas*
Thanks for this. Which sounds odd, considering how dark and upsetting the subject matter is, but this is eloquent and so suggestive.
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:23 am (UTC)Ooh, good point, I hadn't taken it that far, but it makes total sense.
Selfishly, I wish you'd delved a bit more into their conversation during "Pangs"
Sorry. *hugs* I did reread it with that in view, but I read that conversation as being very much about Buffy, and since this is one of the few Jossverse relationships that I don't see as being a threesome-with-absent-pivot I didn't want to focus on her too much.
Want to write the follow up essay for me? *grin* I think you've got more eloquent thoughts on this than I do.
but also that phone conversation between them after Fred's death - Giles appears entirely reluctant to help in any way whatsoever, and the way Angel speaks to him - even though it is born from desperation - is at once frustrated and heartless.
Good points, again.
*hides under desk from fic ideas*
No, no, don't hide! My not-so-secret agenda is to inspire people to write this pairing, and you give great Giles! You'd be perfect!
I could bribe you, if it would help...
Mer
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:42 am (UTC)*Interesting*. I agree - I mean, Buffy's not the absent third to nearly the degree she is/can be for Angel and Spike, but then again, I tend to see *every* relationship as part of a tapestry, so...
My not-so-secret agenda is to inspire people to write this pairing
Eeek! But, but, I've been trying to be lighter and more with the banter and gen and...it's not working. :}
Even though there's no way I can see a happy, longterm relationship between these two (vamp, Watcher; Irishman, Englishman; Buffybuffybuffy; neo-CoW, W&H), there's so much more in writing a pairing than shoving them into a house together. After "Passion" and "Becoming", there's a million and one ideas sparked from their twisty, not-usually parallel paths.
No bribes. I'll do what I can and enjoy it, I'm sure.
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Date: 2004-08-27 11:40 am (UTC)*Interesting*. I agree - I mean, Buffy's not the absent third to nearly the degree she is/can be for Angel and Spike,
*nods* That, for sure. But I also tend to see a lot of my unconventional pairings who had little or no screen time together that way -- Spike/Wesley, Wesley/Connor, Spike/Lindsay, Buffy/Wesley, Spike/Connor are all things that make most sense to me with Angel as the missing pivot, f'rex.
but then again, I tend to see *every* relationship as part of a tapestry, so...
*nods* Inescapeably so. But in this case I feel like the Buffy part of the tapestry's gotten a lot more attention/development than the direct relationship has, so I wanted to even it up a bit.
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:30 am (UTC)While it was never brought up in the context of Giles specifically, it seems entirely plausible to me that Angel remembers torturing Giles with pleasure – which would, of course, only add to his guilt and paralyzing self-consciousness when forced to interact with him. We saw a little of that, when Angel returned to Giles' house in the Thanksgiving episode and on other occasions, but there's much more there to bring out.
This is fascinating, Mer...you do a wonderful job of pulling together all the strands of Giles/Angel interactions. The parallels with Buffy/Faith, Wes/Faith, Buffy/Spike etc. make all kinds of sense.
One additional aspect that might be interesting to explore (and which I only thought of after reading your essay) was Angel's taking on of Eyghon in "The Dark Age." In a very real sense, Angel knows Giles's youthful demons - from the inside. It's another instance of Angel having intimate knowledge about Giles.
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:34 am (UTC)*dies a thousand darkjoyed deaths*
Duuuuuuude. I crave this idea. *grabby hands*
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 12:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 01:01 pm (UTC)Though now I'm thinking there's a Snape=Giles, Ethan=L. Malfoy essay in there someplace. I ain't writing it, but I'd read it.
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Date: 2004-08-27 01:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 10:42 am (UTC)Ooooh -- damn you're smart. That's wonderful.
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Date: 2004-08-27 10:52 am (UTC)*wails*
Neither when Liam was living in Ireland nor in today's world was Ireland in the UK! I'm sure you knew that already, come to think of it. Why'd you put it in?
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Date: 2004-08-27 11:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 11:38 am (UTC)I too find the lack of such a term really irritating. :)
You could say the British Isles, I suppose.
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Date: 2004-08-27 11:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 11:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 01:59 pm (UTC)I started out to say that Giles and Angel were the only ones who shared this characteristic then realized there are more--as well as Vamps in and out of Game Face, Oz and Veruca wolf and unwolf and Hyena!Xander. But it's still something they share.
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Date: 2004-08-27 05:17 pm (UTC)What I like best about G/A is that it forces the writer to acknowledge what lives inside of Angel. You simply CANNOT do fluffy Giles/Angel. Well. You can but it would be bad fanfic.
Thanks for summing this up so well.
And if you ever come across some more good G/A fic, lemme know will ya? StA is sorely lacking in this dept.
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Date: 2004-08-28 08:44 pm (UTC)'Not What You Might Think: Music Sadly' (NC17) Angelus/Giles, Angel/Giles
http://www.livejournal.com/users/willshenillshe/33268.html
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Date: 2004-08-29 07:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-29 07:17 am (UTC)What I like best about G/A is that it forces the writer to acknowledge what lives inside of Angel.
Amen. And sure, I'll let you know.
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Date: 2004-08-28 04:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-29 07:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-29 07:02 am (UTC)Thanks again.
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Date: 2004-08-29 07:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-10 08:19 pm (UTC)I'm wondering if you'd allow me to archive it at Deep In (http://www.fangedfour.com/deepin), or possibly just link to the LJ entry. I know some people are wiggy about having their LJs linked, so archiving may be easiest.
I must agree with Jane, Giles having power over Angel is one of my favorite aspects of this pairing, and played prominently in the only fic I've written with these two. Really enjoyed it, and your sexy brain.
Kisses!
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Date: 2005-01-11 03:20 am (UTC)