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ship_manifestoTitle: Birds of a Feather
Author:faith_of_borg
E-mail: faith_of_borg@livejournal.com
Fandom: DC Comics
Pairing: Dick Grayson/Barbara Gordon (Oracle/Nightwing)
Spoilers: Up through Nightwing #101.
Notes: Many thanks go out topoisonivory for beta reading this essay, and for her extremely helpful suggestions.
Introduction
Dick Grayson, Robin, Nightwing. Barbara Gordon, Batgirl, Oracle. No matter the names, they are possibly one of the sanest couples in the DC Universe (even if sanity is considered a relative term for superheroes in the DC Universe). Their meeting on a rooftop one night may have purely been chance, but it left an impression upon the minds of both. Dick developed a crush on Barbara that went unrequited for years. Barbara may not have returned his feelings at first, but a friendship did develop. Over the years this turned into more.
Barbara Gordon/Oracle/Batgirl I
Barbara Gordon has an enthusiasm for life, even though that life has been a whirlwind of triumph and tragedy, as was foretold by Dr. Fate in Batgirl: Year One. She has always been a fiercely independent woman, one who never waits around to be rescued, but wants to be the rescuer herself. This and her love of adventure led to her long and iconic career as the first Batgirl.
Barbara is the niece and adopted (or possibly biological, as is hinted in Gotham Knights #6) daughter of Commissioner James Gordon, having been taken in by the Commissioner after both of her parents died in a car crash. An incredibly intelligent woman, she became the Head Librarian of Gotham City Public Library after graduating from college, due in part to an incredible photographic memory.
During this time, she created a Batgirl costume—not for crimefighting, but for a costume party. Once Killer Moth showed up to kidnap Bruce Wayne, however, Barbara was officially in her first battle as Batgirl. She continued her crusade as Batgirl for two reasons: 1) she wanted to help people, and 2) it was a fun adrenaline rush. Through her enthusiasm and dedication she gained Batman’s approval – and Robin’s attention.
After years of crime-fighting, Barbara decided to retire as Batgirl. Unfortunately, even retirement could not prevent the Joker shooting her in the doorway of her own home one night. Though she survived, she was paralyzed from the waist down, and would never walk again. Rather than wallow in self-pity or give up on life altogether, she decided to use her knowledge of computers to help other heroes. She joined Suicide Squad as an anonymous computer whiz, and took on the codename of Oracle. As time progressed, she became an invaluable gatherer of information for both the JLA and for Batman and his associates. Eventually she started her own team, which currently includes Black Canary, the Huntress, and, at times, the new Batgirl Cassandra Cain.
Through both time and tragedy she has evolved into a mature and confident young woman. As Oracle she has become an invaluable member of the superhero community, obtaining and distributing vital information with little time for rest. In a time of crisis, she can be counted on to keep a level head.
An excellent example of her courage and strength is this quote:
“Y’know, a lot of the time it’s like you Batguys want me to hold on to the past because you can’t get over it. Understand—I have. I have a new life now, one I like—one that fulfills me. It’s not the same one I had before. But it’s good. Maybe even better.” (Babs to Dick, in Birds of Prey #8.)
Dick Grayson/Nightwing/Robin I
Dick Grayson is the son of circus acrobats Mary and John Grayson. Together, the three of them were known as the Flying Graysons. Dick grew up performing in Haly’s Circus with his parents, and was a superb acrobat. One night, while his parents were performing on the trapeze, the rope broke, and they plummeted to their deaths. Dick was left alone in the world, until Bruce Wayne took him in as his ward. After discovering that Bruce Wayne was Batman, Dick became Robin, the Boy Wonder, and fought by Batman’s side for many years. Naturally a cheerful, carefree spirit, he leavened Batman’s gloom while proving himself not only to be a vital partner to the Dark Knight, but a great leader, taking charge of the Titans (and, as Nightwing, the Outsiders and even, briefly, the JLA, when the original team was thought dead).
After Dick was almost shot by the Joker, Batman made him resign as Robin. After a lot of soul searching and a discussion with Superman, Dick eventually took on the new identity of Nightwing. (There is another version where Dick quit on his own, and became Nightwing during the battle with H.I.V.E., but as this entire period is currently being retconned in Nightwing: Year One, we’ll have to wait for the dust to settle on that to get the latest, definitive version. Either way, Dick was Robin and is now Nightwing.)
As time has progressed, Nightwing has proven to be as great an ally for Batman as he was as Robin, even taking the mantle of the Bat when Batman was badly injured. More recently, he joined the police force of Bludhaven, Gotham’s even more corrupt neighbor, in an attempt to clean up the crooked policemen and bring back justice to the streets.
Despite being raised by Batman, Dick knows that he needs others to help him through times of crisis and people to love. Batman was often distant and never demonstrative throughout Dick’s childhood, and has only grown colder. In recent years, Dick has done his best to help make sure that the mantle of the Bat does not consume Bruce Wayne. Recently, Bruce showed that he loved Dick the only way he knew how - by legally adopting Dick as his son.
Currently, Nightwing is trying to find his place in life again, after things took a sinister turn with his nemesis Blockbuster. Blockbuster blew up both Dick’s apartment building and Haley’s Circus, killing most of Dick’s civilian loved ones. Things ended drastically when Dick’s sometime enemy, sometime ally Tarantula killed Blockbuster, leaving Dick to carry the guilt. Hopefully, he will not come to isolate himself from his loved ones as Batman has often done.
Despite Dick’s many flings (Titans teammate Starfire, whom he almost married, the Huntress, Tarantula, and almost his landlady Clancy), he has always carried a torch for Barbara. Huntress knew before Dick did (from the Huntress/Nightwing trade paperback). Another good example is this scene between Clancy and Dick. Even when he isn’t with Babs, he still thinks of her.
Comics
For those who aren’t familiar with the world of DC comics, in 1985 an attempt was made to simplify the DC “multiverse” by merging all of the many realities into one single universe in a massive crossover storyline called Crisis on Infinite Earths. Characters’ histories were entirely revamped and many ceased to exist entirely. Dick and Babs were not as affected as others, but their history pre- and post-Crisis is different enough to merit noting.
In pre-Crisis continuity, Robin and Batgirl met at that fated masquerade ball when Batgirl fought Killer Moth. The two junior crimefighters fought side by side for many years before learning each other’s secret identities, yet these secrets did nothing to deter their mutual attraction, the rampant flirting they engaged in, or the deep friendship they eventually formed.
Retroactively and Post-Crisis, Barbara Gordon first met Dick Grayson when he was garbed as Robin on the roof of Gotham City’s Police Headquarters, in Robin: Year One. They didn’t have anything resembling a relationship, however, until Barbara donned the cape and cowl for the masquerade ball. A smitten Dick immediately deduced her secret identity and stood up for her when Batman wanted to discourage her from pursuing the superhero life.
Whether Pre- or Post-Crisis, the mutual attraction, admiration, and affection Dick and Babara have for each other has always been evident.
Whether fighting for their lives or just enjoying each other’s company, they are at their best when they are by each other’s side. Reserved, serious Barbara steadies the flightier, impulsive Dick, and Dick gives her the unreserved, unconditional love she desperately needs. Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon’s relationship may have its ups and downs, but they have survived through it all and the past perils merely strengthen them.
While the two of them have recently separated in the comics, it seems inevitable that they should return to each other’s arms. And the sooner the better.
Other Media
As there have been numerous movies, cartoons and television shows featuring Batman and his foes, one’s first exposure to this couple may not always be the comics. In fact, Barbara’s character was created for the original Batman series from the 1960’s. This Barbara Gordon, introduced in the episode “Enter Batgirl, Exit Penguin”, is the version that most people think of whenever they think of Batgirl. The most noticeable difference between the character in the comics and in the television show, was that television’s Barbara Gordon’s red hair was merely a wig. Despite that, and the fact that she did not have a photographic memory, she routinely gained the upper hand when it came to putting a hurt on the underworld.
The 90’s spawned the excellent cartoon series Batman: The Animated Series, and later Gotham Knights, also known as The New Batman Adventures. Dick and Babs shared the same flirtatious, will-they-or-won’t-they? relationship they had for so long in the comics. Others are more of an expert of these cartoons than I am, however.
Finally, the critic- and fan-hated 1997 movie Batman and Robin has another version of the Dick/Babs pairing. In this movie, Barbara (Alicia Silverstone) is Alfred’s niece, rather than Commissioner Gordon’s daughter. This (and her blonde hair) is the most noticeable difference. That coupled with the fact that she likes to race motorcycles in bad parts of town for fun is part of the reason why many do not enjoy this take on the character. Throughout the movie, Dick (Chris O’Donnell) and Barbara flirt with danger and with each other, while saving each other from certain death several times.
Why I Love This Couple
They are, quite possibly the healthiest relationships in the Batverse – although this is a relative term, since Bruce makes everyone seem healthier in comparison. Unlike Bruce, Dick does not let his past get in the way of a relationship. He does not dwell on his parent’s deaths. And Dick and Babs are one of the few couples in the superhero community who you can actually see getting married and settling down. This is largely due to the fact that they have a trusting, open relationship. They are able to communicate honestly with each other. They will not leave an issue to fester and destroy them.
What trade paperbacks feature this couple?
Currently, Nightwing and Oracle each star in their own books. Barbara can be found alongside Huntress and Black Canary as Oracle in Birds of Prey, while Dick can be found in the pages of Nightwing. Both are wonderful comics, and are highly recommended reading. If you are a new reader, now is the best time to join the comics as War Games just wrapped up in both Birds of Prey and Nightwing, and DC Comics is currently publishing a Year One story within the pages of the latter.
Batgirl: Year One: A flashback of the first meeting is shown between Barbara and Robin, on the roof of GCPD Headquarters. It shows Barbara becoming Batgirl, their growing friendship and a hint at the beginning of a romance.
Nightwing: The Hunt For Oracle: Blockbuster wants to find Oracle, and employs many assassins to find her. Nightwing refuses to betray her whereabouts even under torture. This also includes the first face-to-face meeting of Oracle and Black Canary.
Nightwing: A Darker Shade of Justice: After being seriously injured by villains at Blackgate Prison, Barbara nurses Nightwing back to health. Barbara explains why she needs time before she can be with Dick. Very touching.
Links
Fanfiction
There are a few sites out there devoted to the pairing of Dick and Barbara. Some of the best stories are usually located atdcfic_index.
The Romantic Machinations of Timmy the Elf
Video Symbiosis
There is also the wonderful archive called Birds of A Feather, which is devoted to the pairing.
While an RPG,jla_watchtower is home to many wonderful scenes between Nightwing and Oracle, and includes some of the best characterization of the two that I have seen in quite a while. Some of these can be found here.
LJ Groups
batfic
dcfic_index
Discussion Groups
Batgirl-Oracle has frequent discussions on the Nightwing/Oracle relationship.
General
The Batgirl/Oracle Site: Dick & Babs
Fanzing 30 Babs and Dick
Nightwing Bio: Short Pants
Titans Tower: Nightwing
Author:
faith_of_borgE-mail: faith_of_borg@livejournal.com
Fandom: DC Comics
Pairing: Dick Grayson/Barbara Gordon (Oracle/Nightwing)
Spoilers: Up through Nightwing #101.
Notes: Many thanks go out to
poisonivory for beta reading this essay, and for her extremely helpful suggestions.Introduction
Dick Grayson, Robin, Nightwing. Barbara Gordon, Batgirl, Oracle. No matter the names, they are possibly one of the sanest couples in the DC Universe (even if sanity is considered a relative term for superheroes in the DC Universe). Their meeting on a rooftop one night may have purely been chance, but it left an impression upon the minds of both. Dick developed a crush on Barbara that went unrequited for years. Barbara may not have returned his feelings at first, but a friendship did develop. Over the years this turned into more.
Barbara Gordon/Oracle/Batgirl I
Barbara Gordon has an enthusiasm for life, even though that life has been a whirlwind of triumph and tragedy, as was foretold by Dr. Fate in Batgirl: Year One. She has always been a fiercely independent woman, one who never waits around to be rescued, but wants to be the rescuer herself. This and her love of adventure led to her long and iconic career as the first Batgirl.
Barbara is the niece and adopted (or possibly biological, as is hinted in Gotham Knights #6) daughter of Commissioner James Gordon, having been taken in by the Commissioner after both of her parents died in a car crash. An incredibly intelligent woman, she became the Head Librarian of Gotham City Public Library after graduating from college, due in part to an incredible photographic memory.
During this time, she created a Batgirl costume—not for crimefighting, but for a costume party. Once Killer Moth showed up to kidnap Bruce Wayne, however, Barbara was officially in her first battle as Batgirl. She continued her crusade as Batgirl for two reasons: 1) she wanted to help people, and 2) it was a fun adrenaline rush. Through her enthusiasm and dedication she gained Batman’s approval – and Robin’s attention.
After years of crime-fighting, Barbara decided to retire as Batgirl. Unfortunately, even retirement could not prevent the Joker shooting her in the doorway of her own home one night. Though she survived, she was paralyzed from the waist down, and would never walk again. Rather than wallow in self-pity or give up on life altogether, she decided to use her knowledge of computers to help other heroes. She joined Suicide Squad as an anonymous computer whiz, and took on the codename of Oracle. As time progressed, she became an invaluable gatherer of information for both the JLA and for Batman and his associates. Eventually she started her own team, which currently includes Black Canary, the Huntress, and, at times, the new Batgirl Cassandra Cain.
Through both time and tragedy she has evolved into a mature and confident young woman. As Oracle she has become an invaluable member of the superhero community, obtaining and distributing vital information with little time for rest. In a time of crisis, she can be counted on to keep a level head.
An excellent example of her courage and strength is this quote:
“Y’know, a lot of the time it’s like you Batguys want me to hold on to the past because you can’t get over it. Understand—I have. I have a new life now, one I like—one that fulfills me. It’s not the same one I had before. But it’s good. Maybe even better.” (Babs to Dick, in Birds of Prey #8.)
Dick Grayson/Nightwing/Robin I
Dick Grayson is the son of circus acrobats Mary and John Grayson. Together, the three of them were known as the Flying Graysons. Dick grew up performing in Haly’s Circus with his parents, and was a superb acrobat. One night, while his parents were performing on the trapeze, the rope broke, and they plummeted to their deaths. Dick was left alone in the world, until Bruce Wayne took him in as his ward. After discovering that Bruce Wayne was Batman, Dick became Robin, the Boy Wonder, and fought by Batman’s side for many years. Naturally a cheerful, carefree spirit, he leavened Batman’s gloom while proving himself not only to be a vital partner to the Dark Knight, but a great leader, taking charge of the Titans (and, as Nightwing, the Outsiders and even, briefly, the JLA, when the original team was thought dead).
After Dick was almost shot by the Joker, Batman made him resign as Robin. After a lot of soul searching and a discussion with Superman, Dick eventually took on the new identity of Nightwing. (There is another version where Dick quit on his own, and became Nightwing during the battle with H.I.V.E., but as this entire period is currently being retconned in Nightwing: Year One, we’ll have to wait for the dust to settle on that to get the latest, definitive version. Either way, Dick was Robin and is now Nightwing.)
As time has progressed, Nightwing has proven to be as great an ally for Batman as he was as Robin, even taking the mantle of the Bat when Batman was badly injured. More recently, he joined the police force of Bludhaven, Gotham’s even more corrupt neighbor, in an attempt to clean up the crooked policemen and bring back justice to the streets.
Despite being raised by Batman, Dick knows that he needs others to help him through times of crisis and people to love. Batman was often distant and never demonstrative throughout Dick’s childhood, and has only grown colder. In recent years, Dick has done his best to help make sure that the mantle of the Bat does not consume Bruce Wayne. Recently, Bruce showed that he loved Dick the only way he knew how - by legally adopting Dick as his son.
Currently, Nightwing is trying to find his place in life again, after things took a sinister turn with his nemesis Blockbuster. Blockbuster blew up both Dick’s apartment building and Haley’s Circus, killing most of Dick’s civilian loved ones. Things ended drastically when Dick’s sometime enemy, sometime ally Tarantula killed Blockbuster, leaving Dick to carry the guilt. Hopefully, he will not come to isolate himself from his loved ones as Batman has often done.
Despite Dick’s many flings (Titans teammate Starfire, whom he almost married, the Huntress, Tarantula, and almost his landlady Clancy), he has always carried a torch for Barbara. Huntress knew before Dick did (from the Huntress/Nightwing trade paperback). Another good example is this scene between Clancy and Dick. Even when he isn’t with Babs, he still thinks of her.
Comics
For those who aren’t familiar with the world of DC comics, in 1985 an attempt was made to simplify the DC “multiverse” by merging all of the many realities into one single universe in a massive crossover storyline called Crisis on Infinite Earths. Characters’ histories were entirely revamped and many ceased to exist entirely. Dick and Babs were not as affected as others, but their history pre- and post-Crisis is different enough to merit noting.
In pre-Crisis continuity, Robin and Batgirl met at that fated masquerade ball when Batgirl fought Killer Moth. The two junior crimefighters fought side by side for many years before learning each other’s secret identities, yet these secrets did nothing to deter their mutual attraction, the rampant flirting they engaged in, or the deep friendship they eventually formed.
Retroactively and Post-Crisis, Barbara Gordon first met Dick Grayson when he was garbed as Robin on the roof of Gotham City’s Police Headquarters, in Robin: Year One. They didn’t have anything resembling a relationship, however, until Barbara donned the cape and cowl for the masquerade ball. A smitten Dick immediately deduced her secret identity and stood up for her when Batman wanted to discourage her from pursuing the superhero life.
Whether Pre- or Post-Crisis, the mutual attraction, admiration, and affection Dick and Babara have for each other has always been evident.
Whether fighting for their lives or just enjoying each other’s company, they are at their best when they are by each other’s side. Reserved, serious Barbara steadies the flightier, impulsive Dick, and Dick gives her the unreserved, unconditional love she desperately needs. Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon’s relationship may have its ups and downs, but they have survived through it all and the past perils merely strengthen them.
While the two of them have recently separated in the comics, it seems inevitable that they should return to each other’s arms. And the sooner the better.
Other Media
As there have been numerous movies, cartoons and television shows featuring Batman and his foes, one’s first exposure to this couple may not always be the comics. In fact, Barbara’s character was created for the original Batman series from the 1960’s. This Barbara Gordon, introduced in the episode “Enter Batgirl, Exit Penguin”, is the version that most people think of whenever they think of Batgirl. The most noticeable difference between the character in the comics and in the television show, was that television’s Barbara Gordon’s red hair was merely a wig. Despite that, and the fact that she did not have a photographic memory, she routinely gained the upper hand when it came to putting a hurt on the underworld.
The 90’s spawned the excellent cartoon series Batman: The Animated Series, and later Gotham Knights, also known as The New Batman Adventures. Dick and Babs shared the same flirtatious, will-they-or-won’t-they? relationship they had for so long in the comics. Others are more of an expert of these cartoons than I am, however.
Finally, the critic- and fan-hated 1997 movie Batman and Robin has another version of the Dick/Babs pairing. In this movie, Barbara (Alicia Silverstone) is Alfred’s niece, rather than Commissioner Gordon’s daughter. This (and her blonde hair) is the most noticeable difference. That coupled with the fact that she likes to race motorcycles in bad parts of town for fun is part of the reason why many do not enjoy this take on the character. Throughout the movie, Dick (Chris O’Donnell) and Barbara flirt with danger and with each other, while saving each other from certain death several times.
Why I Love This Couple
They are, quite possibly the healthiest relationships in the Batverse – although this is a relative term, since Bruce makes everyone seem healthier in comparison. Unlike Bruce, Dick does not let his past get in the way of a relationship. He does not dwell on his parent’s deaths. And Dick and Babs are one of the few couples in the superhero community who you can actually see getting married and settling down. This is largely due to the fact that they have a trusting, open relationship. They are able to communicate honestly with each other. They will not leave an issue to fester and destroy them.
What trade paperbacks feature this couple?
Currently, Nightwing and Oracle each star in their own books. Barbara can be found alongside Huntress and Black Canary as Oracle in Birds of Prey, while Dick can be found in the pages of Nightwing. Both are wonderful comics, and are highly recommended reading. If you are a new reader, now is the best time to join the comics as War Games just wrapped up in both Birds of Prey and Nightwing, and DC Comics is currently publishing a Year One story within the pages of the latter.
Batgirl: Year One: A flashback of the first meeting is shown between Barbara and Robin, on the roof of GCPD Headquarters. It shows Barbara becoming Batgirl, their growing friendship and a hint at the beginning of a romance.
Nightwing: The Hunt For Oracle: Blockbuster wants to find Oracle, and employs many assassins to find her. Nightwing refuses to betray her whereabouts even under torture. This also includes the first face-to-face meeting of Oracle and Black Canary.
Nightwing: A Darker Shade of Justice: After being seriously injured by villains at Blackgate Prison, Barbara nurses Nightwing back to health. Barbara explains why she needs time before she can be with Dick. Very touching.
Links
Fanfiction
There are a few sites out there devoted to the pairing of Dick and Barbara. Some of the best stories are usually located at
dcfic_index. The Romantic Machinations of Timmy the Elf
Video Symbiosis
There is also the wonderful archive called Birds of A Feather, which is devoted to the pairing.
While an RPG,
jla_watchtower is home to many wonderful scenes between Nightwing and Oracle, and includes some of the best characterization of the two that I have seen in quite a while. Some of these can be found here.LJ Groups
batficdcfic_indexDiscussion Groups
Batgirl-Oracle has frequent discussions on the Nightwing/Oracle relationship.
General
The Batgirl/Oracle Site: Dick & Babs
Fanzing 30 Babs and Dick
Nightwing Bio: Short Pants
Titans Tower: Nightwing
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2005-02-10 07:01 pm (UTC)Thanks for the shout-out. Good essay!
no subject
Date: 2005-02-10 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-10 07:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 01:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-10 08:49 pm (UTC)Dick and Babs are my all-time comicbook OTP. *sigh* Curse you, Devin Grayson.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-10 09:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-10 11:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 05:48 am (UTC)Considering that Devin writes the Dick/Babs love better than just about any other comics writer out there, I'm actually surprised that Dick/Babs fans don't seem to appreciate her take on their relationship.
I could totally understand being upset if Devin wrote them as falling *out* of love with each other, or falling in love with other people... but that didn't happen. The phone messages they leave each other in NW #100 and BoP, was it #76? Just so *heartbreakingly* full of love on *both* sides. *sigh* I'd rather have a story about two mature adults trying and failing to make it work, because of their own issues, than some schmoopy romance novel story where one kiss means "happily ever after" forever.
I mean, so Dick and Babs broke up-- so what? Name a classic het relationship in the DCU that *hasn't* been on the rocks most of the time. Ollie/Dinah, Wally/Linda, even Clark and Lois have their issues now and then. Lovey-dovey no-conflict relationships are *boring*, and a story that ignores the real *issues* that Dick and Babs have with love, independence, relationships and each other... well. Boring *and* not true to the characters, either.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 06:27 am (UTC)(I also don't buy Devin's take on the Nightwing/Huntress relationship, but that's another rant.)
I was also extremely offended by Devin's script for the now-infamous rooftop rape scene. This isn't a case of me finding rape an inappropriate story choice; I happen to think that silence empowers the predators, and I've volunteered for our local domestic abuse/sexual assault center, so I've learned something about cases where men are raped by women. I felt that Devin's original description of that scene read as if it were being written by someone who was indulging in a rape fantasy, which made me extremely uncomfortable.
I find Gail Simone to have done a much better job of portraying the Dick/Babs relationship. YMMV.
As for lovey-dovey no-conflict relationships being boring ... well, speaking as someone who's been extremely happily married for nearly 10 years now, I don't think that's the case. Or if we're speaking strictly of fictional relationships, one of the things the Nightwing player and I have discussed in our prep work for portraying the Dick/Babs relationship has been about facing the issues a couple deals with when they get married. Some of the issues we've addressed include such things as how difficult it is to go from living by yourself for years to suddenly sharing your space with someone else (the fact that it's someone you love very much doesn't automatically make the adjustment stress-free, speaking from personal experience); more specifically, since we're dealing with a crime-fighting couple, we've been addressing Babs' tendency to play "Ms. Fix-It" by proceeding to implement a solution without considering the other party's feelings (see the early stages of Babs' partnership with Dinah, particularly Babs' "I am the word" attitude regarding the Santa Prisca mission), and how the couple struggle with when they are being Babs and Dick, and when they are being Oracle and Nightwing. We're tying up a storyline where Dick had to agree to a plan that he found problematic in Nightwing mode and intolerable in Dick-who-is-married-to-Babs mode. We've had scenes where the two of them have had genuine disagreements over the best way to handle situations--not simply cases where one is right and the other wrong, but where each person is viewing a problem from a different perspective and thus arriving at a solution that is in conflict with the other person's.
Or, as another married person I know has put it, the wedding isn't the end of the story; it's the end of a chapter, and what follows is the really good stuff.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 06:44 am (UTC)However, even if you like strong pairings who deal with the adult decision that they can't be together (Ollie/Dinah in Watchtower being a good example, and DC continuity nearly so), the scenes (admittedly few) I have read of Dick/Babs conflict read far more immature than that to me: they read like college freshmen. At one point this would have been perfect for the two of them, but in other ways they are so established as mature (if imperfect) adults that it rings hollow.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 07:29 am (UTC)Oh, I'm *totally* speaking of fictional relationships. I see no reason to throw monkey wrenches into *real* relationships for the sake of excitement!
had an easier time believing in Dick's attraction to Clancy than to Tarantulas.
They were two totally different *types* of attraction, though. Dick had an easy, flirty relationship with Clancy and a desperate, issue-laden relationship with Catalina.
(I also don't buy Devin's take on the Nightwing/Huntress relationship, but that's another rant.)
Not to be too aggressive or anything, but by the time you're denying more canon than you are accepting, don't you wonder if it's *your* perception of the character that's off? For better or worse, Devin's had a hand in shaping the character and his major relationships since his Titans days. When you have to go back ten years to find a Dick that you *do* feel is well written, perhaps it's time to accept that the character has evolved beyond who he was as Robin, when his crush on Batgirl was the easiest thing in the world, and the most important thing too.
I was also extremely offended by Devin's script for the now-infamous rooftop rape scene.
Which is interesting, because I don't see why so many people read that *as* a rape scene. You simply can't tell me that Dick was incapable of either verbally or physically preventing sex from happening at that point in time. The phrasing that he *does* use to tell her "Don't" speaks more of his feeling, in that instant, that he's undeserving of comfort or love, that he only deserves to be alone. Was it stupid, inappropriate sex? Sure. Was Dick in a vulnerable spot, emotionally? Of course. Was it rape? Not unless you'd also call it rape if, hypothetically, Dick and Babs had had sex when Dick went to Babs after Haly's burned down. He was in an equally emotional and vulnerable state of mind there, don't you think?
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 07:36 am (UTC)Chuck Dixon left Nightwing ten years ago?
*headscratch*
Wow...it's only gotten to 100 issues in that amount of time? AMAZING. [/sarcasm]
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 07:43 am (UTC)What exactly do you see as the *core* characterization differences between Dixon and Grayson's depictions of Dick?
Not differences in the *plot arc*-- differences in the characterization. Who he is as a person. Seriously, I'd like to know.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 07:54 am (UTC)I'm not denying Devin's contributions to canon, or her ability as a writer. Let me restate, I just don't like some of her choices...that's not a statement on her talent or ability as a writer. I just don't happen to think her specific style and intent is particularly suited to this character.
As far as writers who have dictated and set the canon of this particular character, I'm more inclined to opt for Chuck Dixon and/or Marv Wolfman, who have contributed more to Nightwing, and his supporting cast, than anyone I can think of.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 08:12 am (UTC)On that point we can totally agree,
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 07:50 am (UTC)I understand they were different. I also found one to be portrayed more plausibly than the other. YMMV.
Not to be too aggressive or anything, but by the time you're denying more canon than you are accepting, don't you wonder if it's *your* perception of the character that's off?
Nope. I'm saying I don't care for how she wrote it. That's not denying canon. That's saying I don't like it. Dixon and McDaniel also didn't care for the Nightwing/Huntress miniseries, as it happens. Looking at the amount of Dixon canon (and Wolfman, since I've read a lot of Titans stuff, and Wolfman is the writer who created the Nightwing persona in the first place) against Devin's canon, I find that I enjoy reading more of Dixon and Wolfman, and even if you exclude Dixon's current short run on the title, he's written Nightwing canon more recently than 10 years ago.
Which is interesting, because I don't see why so many people read that *as* a rape scene. You simply can't tell me that Dick was incapable of either verbally or physically preventing sex from happening at that point in time.
I call it a rape scene because I define rape as "carnal knowledge of a person without his/her consent." I also call it a rape scene because Devin's script for that issue says, "I don't want us to get in trouble, but I also don't want any confusion about what's going on here. Believe it or not, this wildly inappropriate, gratuitous sex (or really rape, to be fair to him) is a plot point." Additionally, she referred to it as a rape in a chat session (which is not a formal interview, but still indicative of how she saw it). So the author herself has called it rape twice, and "nonconsensual" in another interview:
From the chat transcript: (http://www.jlauniverse.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=2275)
acedrake :Devin, will babs forgive NW his tryst with Tanatula? Or where they on a "Ross Breake" ? Smile
DevinGrayson :Will do, Space Cowboy -- check my website. :-)
DevinGrayson :Ace -- Ross break, lol! Um.,..well, considering he was raped, I think there's a good chance Babs will forgive him.
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Date: 2005-02-11 08:09 am (UTC)I think if more people could support the view that it's rape by examining *the story itself*, I'd be more inclined to accept that viewpoint. However, I simply don't think the comic, *as printed*, is quite as black and white. I don't think it's IMPOSSIBLE to read it and think, "hey, that might've been rape." But nor do I think that's *clearly* the only plausible reading there could be. Even in real life, situations are often more complicated than simple dichotomies.
As for what Devin said in the script, I'm of the opinion that what the author *meant* may not always be what comes across on the finished page. Word balloons get dropped, editing happens, art may clarify or confuse the text, and things generally just aren't
As for what she might've said in chat, the person who asked the question seems to have been just another person who thinks sex equals love, and therefore Dick's moment of weakness means he loves Barbara less, or something, which I simply *don't find to be true*. Hypothetically, if Devin had answered the question by saying "Well, considering there were questionable consent issues, although it wasn't rape..." would you then ignore your own interpretation of what happened in favor of hers? Or would you take the stance, "well, *I* know what I read, and that was rape, whether Devin says it was or not." I kind of suspect that a lot of people would stick to their guns.
I personally take the second stance-- I don't feel the need to let the author make up my mind *for* me. Once the story exists, it's open to a multitude of interpretations, and what the author says she was trying to do may or may not influence *my* reading. (And I'd especially find this to be true in the case of an author that I didn't think wasa very good writer.) Bill Willingham on Robin, for instance, can talk all he likes about his awesome, exciting choices for the characters, but I don't believe a word of it. Heh.
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Date: 2005-02-11 08:26 am (UTC)I think it's important to consider the author's intentions in addition to your own perceptions. If, for example, an author says that a given subtext perceived by some readers was not intended by him/her, then I think it's disrespectful to insist that the author must have meant that subtext to be in there.
Perceptions do have a habit of shifting when you get new information, or simply when you've had time to reflect. For instance, you initially said "because I don't see why so many people read that *as* a rape scene," and now you're saying, "I don't think it's IMPOSSIBLE to read it and think, "hey, that might've been rape." But nor do I think that's *clearly* the only plausible reading there could be."
But as I've said a number of times already in this dicussion, YMMV. Before this discussion get to the point where it's the latest feature on Fandom Wank, I'd just like to state once again that there's plenty of room in the DCU sandbox for a variety of opinions and interpretation regarding all the elements of canon: plot, characterization, theme, etc. I think
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Date: 2005-02-11 08:49 am (UTC)But someone would only do that (insist that the author *must* have meant a certain thing) if they were the type that believed that an author's intention trumps the reader's interpretation. Which I don't... so I wouldn't do that. I'm talking strictly about interpreting the characters' actions in their fictional world, and ignoring any meta information or appeals to authority.
(Subtext *often* exists unintentionally; to insist that subtext exists doesn't necessarily attribute any intentionality on the author's part.)
Perceptions do have a habit of shifting when you get new information, or simply when you've had time to reflect. For instance, you initially said "because I don't see why so many people read that *as* a rape scene," and now you're saying, "I don't think it's IMPOSSIBLE to read it and think, "hey, that might've been rape."
Let me clarify, just in case you think those two statements are somehow contradictory (because they aren't.)
As I said: I *don't* think it's impossible to read that issue, on its own, and come up with the interpretation, "that's rape." (As you point out, there's many different varieties of interpretations of *all* sorts of elements of canon that could influence one's reading.) However, I still don't see why *so many* people *do* see it that way-- since in my opinion, it is simply not the most obvious interpretation. It's a *possible* interpretation, yes-- it's not like you're saying something completely off-the-wall like "Well, I think that *really* Catalina is secretly a space alien working for Lex Luthor."
So yes, it's a possible interpretation, but IMHO *not* the most plausible one (unless you privilege the author's interpretation of the text) hence my original puzzlement as to why so many people seemed to be interpreting the story in that manner.
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Date: 2005-02-11 08:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 09:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 09:46 am (UTC)I wasn't aware that one *had* to agree in order to have a discussion; in my experience, usually it's quite the reverse. :)
If
However, when I see a post that includes two paragraphs of further discussion of my statements (http://www.livejournal.com/community/ship_manifesto/70627.html?replyto=1931747), I don't generally assume that person wishes to *end* the discussion; quite the reverse, wouldn't you say?
When a person continues to attempt to make their point with me, I will continue to make my point with them. It is generally not considered good conversational form to hold the floor, make one's points, and then one-sidedly end the discussion, thus cutting off the possibility of rebuttal; I honestly didn't think that's what
To
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Date: 2005-02-11 04:20 pm (UTC)For the record, I restate: I've no problem reopening this conversation someplace else that our differing interpretations aren't distracting from
I'll freely admit that it's possible I didn't give Devin's work on the book a completely fair shake, as I was quite a fan of Dixon's run, and have, in the past, dropped many a book during writerly creative switchovers. I'm big on loyalty to creators who really jazz me, and Devin, who I've found to be a perfectly servicable writer on other stories in the past, just wasn't doing it for me as a follow-up to someone I personally consider to be one of the top three defining voices on the Bat-family of books.
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Date: 2005-02-11 08:11 am (UTC)Oops, posted without finishing a sentence:
things generally just aren't always perfectly identical from script to screen, as it were. In this case, I can *totally* see tons of reasons why that particular scene might've gotten toned down and made more ambigous on the trip from page to panel. Of course that's just hypothetical.
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Date: 2005-02-11 06:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 06:35 am (UTC)But then, I'm generally not crazy about Devin's writing skills as a whole. I think she suffers from what I call Cool Idea Syndrome: she gets a Cool Idea and runs with it, without addressing some major ramifications and consequences. I was okay with her run on Gotham Knights, because she was dealing with shorter story arcs and an ensemble cast, but I don't care for a lot of the work she did on Nightwing. I find her story logic to be flawed, her grasp of characterization to be less than organic, and her stories to be exercises in plot-driven characters rather than in character-driven plots.
But as I said before, YMMV, and there's certainly enough room in the sandbox for different POVs.
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Date: 2005-02-11 06:48 am (UTC)It comes across to me as being incredibly facile, ignoring certain subtleties, not to mention that I think she's prone to leaping from point to point without bothering to provide some sort of rationale or logic for the direction she's chosen.
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Date: 2005-02-11 02:08 pm (UTC)One of the things I love about Devin is how when she writes characters fighting, you can really feel how much the characters love each other. That was my favorite thing about her run on the Titans, too; all the bonding and sibling-like relationships were right *there*, whereas in some of the later issues of that series, I had to wonder... do these people even like each other? Where's the love?
Yeah, I fell in love with Devin's Dick/Babs. See you in the "future"! :D
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Date: 2005-02-11 05:49 am (UTC)I should add, c'mon now. I don't know how long you've been a comics fan, but I'm *sure* you know by now that most of the time, you *absolutely* can't judge a book by its cover.
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Date: 2005-02-11 06:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 07:17 am (UTC)Well, I might've been mistaken, but I assumed that your opinion was formed in large part by the cover because you referred to that issue as "the one with Tarantula in a bridal veil cuddling Nightwing." Which never happened in the issue. Just on the cover.
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Date: 2005-02-11 07:20 am (UTC)(For those who don't know the song I'm referring to--)
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Date: 2005-02-11 08:04 am (UTC)kyrumption
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Date: 2005-02-12 04:06 pm (UTC)I don't have a Batverse icon, but...
Date: 2005-02-16 10:21 pm (UTC)no subject
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