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ship_manifestoTitle:His Grace Commander Sir Samuel Vimes / Havelock Vetinari, Patrician of Ankh-Morpork
(or Sam/Havvie) (Discworld)
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disc_sophist
Spoilers: Feet of Clay, Night Watch... aw, heck, the watch books in general
Email: discsophist@gmail.com
My interest in Sam Vimes and Havelock Vetinari has been around almost as long as my interest in slash. Vimes’ gritty exterior combined with his secretly kind heart is as intoxicating as a gulp of Bearhugger’s Finest. He’s often out of his depth, but he rarely lets it get in his way. Vetinari is a combination of Machiavelli and (by Pterry’s own implication) Hobbes; a man who knows he’s the only person available to orchestrate his carefully crafted city. How could anyone notslash love them?!
The first issue, long before personality and suitability, is the original work itself. Unlike a lot of television and film characters, V&V are known primarily through the books. Using an author’s own medium for fanfiction is incredibly difficult at best, and when the author is Terry Pratchett, the task of re-creating the charisma, well-timed dialogue, and downright snark is near-impossible. This is not to say that it can’t happen, but a warning not to concentrate too heavily on Being Pterry. Start with what YOU liked best about the characters and the books, and what made you want to write about them in the first place, and go from there.
When describing the Discworld characters, we have the invaluable reference of Stephen & Pterry’s Discworld Companion. I recommend that anyone interested in writing Discfic acquire this book for character and continuity’s sake. My partial reconstructions here owe it more than I’d like to admit. All quotes are from the Companion unless otherwise noted.
*squint* Slash? Where? Why? How?
I’m sure there are many more places to find the slash than I noted here. I’ll update with any I think are major, but these take into account the more obvious personality traits that form the basis of their relationship.
1) Both have great responsibility and unflinching loyalty to the city of Ankh-Morpork.
Vimes is also, in a sense, loyal to Vetinari, thus his nickname "Vetinari's Terrier." He sees how Vetinari has reorganized the city, and though he may disagree with the Patrician's total control, he can appreciate and respect the complicated order and ease of command that he could never hope to achieve or understand.
Slashwise, we might claim that Vimes' devotion can be magnified into something greater, either through his love of Vetinari as The City, or simply the capable man himself. On the other extreme, a desire to... ahem... dominate or be dominated could arise from his well-warranted suspicion that Vetinari is always toying with him.
Conversely, Vetinari needs Vimes' impulsiveness and common sense when a threat to his careful system pops up. Vetinari can plan and plot, applying his little pressures when and where he must, but his outwardly unassuming nature can't accomplish everything. Blunt, threatening insults to the nobility and decidedly non-diplomatic diplomacy are what Vimes does best. In Feet of Clay, he claims to have invented Vimes, and there is a self-satisfied pride in watching his creation in action. Vimes' straightforwardness often amuses Vetinari, even when it causes him problems.
Slashwise, Vetinari is drawn to Vimes' impetuous nature, wanting the part of Vimes that cannot be handled like everything else. On the other hand, Vetinari could also want to control in an intimate setting what he can't control in his political dealings. This is not to say that can only want Vimes as a wild, unthinking animal. As a policeman, Vimes has a crafty, creative way of thinking, and Vetinari can also be drawn to that.
2) They are both powerful men, despite their many critics and their questionable place in society.
Vetinari has retained his power by “being equally distrusted and disliked by all interest groups in the city but also by carefully not being as unpopular as every interest group is to all the others.” Vimes obtained his Captaincy, and therefore came to the attention of the Patrician, by “the sheer unthinkability of promoting any other watchman.”
Vimes is not truly a member of any class, because of the disparity between his current place and his origins. He has no wish to rejoin the upper class, and despite his occasional walks down memory lane (Cockbill Street, actually), he can see the advantages of being comfortable. On the other hand, Vetinari comes from a well-known family but is rarely, if ever, seen at “formal occasions.” The nobs are not his people, nor is he a tradesman, despite having been trained at the Assassin’s Guild. In a world of high-up constantly trying to become higher-ups, this isolates them into the tiny group of people who often find themselves above/outside the restrictions of society. They are both happy to be allowed to accomplish their jobs/tasks strangely, keep strange hours, and act in a totally unexplained manner with few repercussions. One could see how this would lead to considering social options not previously open to them, and give them the means to explore those options. Wink wink.
The third, and greatest reason for slash in any fandom:
3) They annoy the hells out of each other.
Respect and usefulness aside, Vetinari’s mere presence irritates Vimes. The Patrician delights in this. He refers to Vimes’ unwanted rank whenever possible, enjoys preying on the ignorance of a simply educated man, puts him in diplomatic situations that are sure to make him uncomfortable, and talks to Sybil without Vimes’ knowledge.
Vimes ably returns the compliment. With some exceptions, his goal is to keep as much from the Patrician as possible with a carefully placed “Yes, sir.” “No, sir.” “Could be, sir.” or the timeworn classic: “Sir.” The impulsive behavior mentioned earlier is sometimes genuinely vexing to Vetinari. He is also adept at twisting an attempted insult into something entirely different. From Feet of Clay
Vetinari: It would be a terrible thing, would it not, if people thought they could take the law into their own hands...
Vimes: Oh, no fear of that, sir. I’m holding on tightly to it.
Slashwise, we all know what this means. Though there was a degree of seriousness to the disagreements early on, they have developed a social relationship made up of mostly non-threatening snark. They are both too sensible to waste that much of themselves on someone who isn’t worth their time, who lacks interest for them.
The extension of this particular route to slashiness culminates in Night Watch, with their final, almost comfortable exchange. Pterry takes the two into a whole new realm of interaction. Their pasts are now more directly intermingled, and they share many emotionally important memories. A story set after Night Watch should take this new openness into account, even if said openness remains, in Havelock’s words, “At this time ... and in this place.”
Why not:
(“The not-fun part,” or “Obstacles to be vanquished by the power of hot manlove”.)
1) Sybil.
Ah, yes. Sam Vimes is married. He’s a good, loyal man, and doesn’t seem the type to cheat on his wife. I won’t presume to list a couple of the reasons why it’s ok to shag one’s boss when one is married to a wonderful, caring woman. Especially when that woman is the mother of one’s child. Oh alright- yes I will, but you’ve got to promise not to tell my husband.
One must admit that their marriage wasn’t exactly a romantic whirlwind of hearts and roses. He stumbled into the situation, and while not in any way disagreeable, marriage to an incredibly wealthy woman wasn’t what he had previously expected. This has many possible outcomes, a couple of them slashy. He could simply become bored, and seek out stimulation elsewhere. He could also wander into another similar situation, whether of Vetinari’s making or incidental to them both, and find himself more heavily involved with his patrician than he ever meant to be.
The time leading up to his marriage was a combination of happiness about being married and upset about leaving the watch. His work is at least as important as his marriage, however much he might love Sybil, and a relationship with Vetinari could be seen as an extension of a very separate sort of love.
For either of these, I have seen scenarios in which Vimes either is honest with his wife about his attachment to Vetinari, or does his best to pretend, in the face of very strong emotion, that Sybil doesn’t need to know.
Note: thanks to the kind anonymous comment-person who suggested this!
I had a bit written up about Sybil accepting the situation, but I felt it would intrude too far into the realm of telling the writer how to proceed, rather than how the character of Vimes would deal with the issue. As the comment noted, it is Vimes who would think she'd have a problem. Still, there are things that are very useful for bringing Sybil into the scenario.
Sybil loves Sam very much, and understands him as a husband as well as Vetinari understands him as a watchman. Her calm, logical references to him as these two different men, the husband and the watchman, imply that she'd be able to deal with the situation the way she deals with the bloodstained clothes and the "rumours of chases over rooftops" (The Fifth Elephant). As far back as Jingo, there was a general acceptance that she would never have all of him. If a woman thinks this way about her husband, it seems very possible that she would understand, even facilitate the relationship:
At least Sam was home every day.
Well, most days. Every night, anyway.
Well, part most night, certainly.
At least they ate meals together.
Well, most meals.
Well, at least they made a start on most meals.
Well, at least she knew he was never very far away, just somewhere where he was trying to do too much and run too fast and people were trying to kill him.
All in all, she considered, she was jolly lucky.
Ok, those are by no means all the possibilities, but past that I feel that it’s your own moral choice, so ... there’s also AU, OOC, crack!fic, setting it pre-Sybil, and er... character death.
2) Vetinari is far too busy to have a sex life.
This is almost canon, in my opinion. Though he is amused and/or annoyed by many things, and definitely has interests, they usually pertain to the running of the city. In fact, his only mention of anything vaguely romantic is an allusion to Lady Margolotta. This makes him at least interested in females, but considering the woman is a vampire ... Well, let’s just say that an attraction to men would be decidedly tame by comparison.
3) They could get in really big trouble.
Despite the earlier mention of relative social freedom, any word of a relationship could be severely damaging. One of Vetinari’s most distinctive traits is his lack of discernable weakness, and an emotional attachment could easily be exploited. A similar condition applies to Sam, who would probably be very reluctant to add another person the list of his own weaknesses.
4) Vimes’ reference to the “pick-n-mix” nature of Love in The Shades.
A small, but annoying one, that implies that Vimes thinks very traditionally about sex, or not at all. Pterry throws these in every once in a while (e.g. Pteppic’s teacher in Pyramids) just to bug us. Don’t worry, we know that one is always wary of that which one does not understand.
(If anyone can find me the reference, I’ve been going crazy trying to find it.)
Bits to muse upon (i.e. things that wouldn’t fit anywhere else):
1) Vetinari’s careful planning and attention to detail has got to be incredibly useful in bed.
2) Vimes destroying those plans has got to be fun as well.
3) They’re both aging, but Vimes is a rugged watchman-type, and Vetinari is a trained, agile assassin.
4) Leonard invents some really neat toys, and is no position to spread rumours.
5) Vampires. Vetinari’s possible affection for Lady Margolotta vs. Vimes hate of the bloodsucking fiends, black ribbon or no.
6) Names: Sam or Vimes? Vetinari or Havelock? They’ve known each other so long with a wall of formality between them, that an immediate leap into first names seems extreme. Still, a natural progression is possible if there is love there. Or if one of them is drugged up on something.
7) Big Nose = Big- ahem. Heh heh.
8) More as I think of them.
Resources and Recs
The Watch Books: Vimes and Vetinari are featured in Guards! Guards!, Men At Arms , Feet of Clay (my favorite for slashy interaction), Jingo , The Fifth Elephant , The Last Hero (sort of - Vimes is not prominent), and Night Watch. And don’t forget The New Discworld Companion.
Online there’s the L-Space Web, which you probably already know. It’s also an excellent jumping point.
Fic Recs
Individual recs coming soon, including my own (fear!) but for now I’ll just send you to:
The Discworld Fanfiction Archive, (still in progress) where there are some amazing fics to get you started. Or keep you going...
There’s also the Discworld section of Fanfiction.net, while having exiled the NC-17 efforts, is still worth wading through.
There is a Yahoo Group with an archive that often overlaps these two, but is a wonderful place to read, post, find betas, and just discuss your fanfiction with a sympathetic audience. Note: You must be of your country’s legal age to view adult material.
There will be updates. Please comment with suggestions and criticisms, but I beg you to be nice. I’m open to pretty much anything.
(or Sam/Havvie) (Discworld)
Author:
disc_sophistSpoilers: Feet of Clay, Night Watch... aw, heck, the watch books in general
Email: discsophist@gmail.com
VIMES/VETINARI
My interest in Sam Vimes and Havelock Vetinari has been around almost as long as my interest in slash. Vimes’ gritty exterior combined with his secretly kind heart is as intoxicating as a gulp of Bearhugger’s Finest. He’s often out of his depth, but he rarely lets it get in his way. Vetinari is a combination of Machiavelli and (by Pterry’s own implication) Hobbes; a man who knows he’s the only person available to orchestrate his carefully crafted city. How could anyone not
The first issue, long before personality and suitability, is the original work itself. Unlike a lot of television and film characters, V&V are known primarily through the books. Using an author’s own medium for fanfiction is incredibly difficult at best, and when the author is Terry Pratchett, the task of re-creating the charisma, well-timed dialogue, and downright snark is near-impossible. This is not to say that it can’t happen, but a warning not to concentrate too heavily on Being Pterry. Start with what YOU liked best about the characters and the books, and what made you want to write about them in the first place, and go from there.
When describing the Discworld characters, we have the invaluable reference of Stephen & Pterry’s Discworld Companion. I recommend that anyone interested in writing Discfic acquire this book for character and continuity’s sake. My partial reconstructions here owe it more than I’d like to admit. All quotes are from the Companion unless otherwise noted.
*squint* Slash? Where? Why? How?
I’m sure there are many more places to find the slash than I noted here. I’ll update with any I think are major, but these take into account the more obvious personality traits that form the basis of their relationship.
1) Both have great responsibility and unflinching loyalty to the city of Ankh-Morpork.
Vimes is also, in a sense, loyal to Vetinari, thus his nickname "Vetinari's Terrier." He sees how Vetinari has reorganized the city, and though he may disagree with the Patrician's total control, he can appreciate and respect the complicated order and ease of command that he could never hope to achieve or understand.
Slashwise, we might claim that Vimes' devotion can be magnified into something greater, either through his love of Vetinari as The City, or simply the capable man himself. On the other extreme, a desire to... ahem... dominate or be dominated could arise from his well-warranted suspicion that Vetinari is always toying with him.
Conversely, Vetinari needs Vimes' impulsiveness and common sense when a threat to his careful system pops up. Vetinari can plan and plot, applying his little pressures when and where he must, but his outwardly unassuming nature can't accomplish everything. Blunt, threatening insults to the nobility and decidedly non-diplomatic diplomacy are what Vimes does best. In Feet of Clay, he claims to have invented Vimes, and there is a self-satisfied pride in watching his creation in action. Vimes' straightforwardness often amuses Vetinari, even when it causes him problems.
Slashwise, Vetinari is drawn to Vimes' impetuous nature, wanting the part of Vimes that cannot be handled like everything else. On the other hand, Vetinari could also want to control in an intimate setting what he can't control in his political dealings. This is not to say that can only want Vimes as a wild, unthinking animal. As a policeman, Vimes has a crafty, creative way of thinking, and Vetinari can also be drawn to that.
2) They are both powerful men, despite their many critics and their questionable place in society.
Vetinari has retained his power by “being equally distrusted and disliked by all interest groups in the city but also by carefully not being as unpopular as every interest group is to all the others.” Vimes obtained his Captaincy, and therefore came to the attention of the Patrician, by “the sheer unthinkability of promoting any other watchman.”
Vimes is not truly a member of any class, because of the disparity between his current place and his origins. He has no wish to rejoin the upper class, and despite his occasional walks down memory lane (Cockbill Street, actually), he can see the advantages of being comfortable. On the other hand, Vetinari comes from a well-known family but is rarely, if ever, seen at “formal occasions.” The nobs are not his people, nor is he a tradesman, despite having been trained at the Assassin’s Guild. In a world of high-up constantly trying to become higher-ups, this isolates them into the tiny group of people who often find themselves above/outside the restrictions of society. They are both happy to be allowed to accomplish their jobs/tasks strangely, keep strange hours, and act in a totally unexplained manner with few repercussions. One could see how this would lead to considering social options not previously open to them, and give them the means to explore those options. Wink wink.
The third, and greatest reason for slash in any fandom:
3) They annoy the hells out of each other.
Respect and usefulness aside, Vetinari’s mere presence irritates Vimes. The Patrician delights in this. He refers to Vimes’ unwanted rank whenever possible, enjoys preying on the ignorance of a simply educated man, puts him in diplomatic situations that are sure to make him uncomfortable, and talks to Sybil without Vimes’ knowledge.
Vimes ably returns the compliment. With some exceptions, his goal is to keep as much from the Patrician as possible with a carefully placed “Yes, sir.” “No, sir.” “Could be, sir.” or the timeworn classic: “Sir.” The impulsive behavior mentioned earlier is sometimes genuinely vexing to Vetinari. He is also adept at twisting an attempted insult into something entirely different. From Feet of Clay
Vetinari: It would be a terrible thing, would it not, if people thought they could take the law into their own hands...
Vimes: Oh, no fear of that, sir. I’m holding on tightly to it.
Slashwise, we all know what this means. Though there was a degree of seriousness to the disagreements early on, they have developed a social relationship made up of mostly non-threatening snark. They are both too sensible to waste that much of themselves on someone who isn’t worth their time, who lacks interest for them.
The extension of this particular route to slashiness culminates in Night Watch, with their final, almost comfortable exchange. Pterry takes the two into a whole new realm of interaction. Their pasts are now more directly intermingled, and they share many emotionally important memories. A story set after Night Watch should take this new openness into account, even if said openness remains, in Havelock’s words, “At this time ... and in this place.”
Why not:
(“The not-fun part,” or “Obstacles to be vanquished by the power of hot manlove”.)
1) Sybil.
Ah, yes. Sam Vimes is married. He’s a good, loyal man, and doesn’t seem the type to cheat on his wife. I won’t presume to list a couple of the reasons why it’s ok to shag one’s boss when one is married to a wonderful, caring woman. Especially when that woman is the mother of one’s child. Oh alright- yes I will, but you’ve got to promise not to tell my husband.
One must admit that their marriage wasn’t exactly a romantic whirlwind of hearts and roses. He stumbled into the situation, and while not in any way disagreeable, marriage to an incredibly wealthy woman wasn’t what he had previously expected. This has many possible outcomes, a couple of them slashy. He could simply become bored, and seek out stimulation elsewhere. He could also wander into another similar situation, whether of Vetinari’s making or incidental to them both, and find himself more heavily involved with his patrician than he ever meant to be.
The time leading up to his marriage was a combination of happiness about being married and upset about leaving the watch. His work is at least as important as his marriage, however much he might love Sybil, and a relationship with Vetinari could be seen as an extension of a very separate sort of love.
For either of these, I have seen scenarios in which Vimes either is honest with his wife about his attachment to Vetinari, or does his best to pretend, in the face of very strong emotion, that Sybil doesn’t need to know.
Note: thanks to the kind anonymous comment-person who suggested this!
I had a bit written up about Sybil accepting the situation, but I felt it would intrude too far into the realm of telling the writer how to proceed, rather than how the character of Vimes would deal with the issue. As the comment noted, it is Vimes who would think she'd have a problem. Still, there are things that are very useful for bringing Sybil into the scenario.
Sybil loves Sam very much, and understands him as a husband as well as Vetinari understands him as a watchman. Her calm, logical references to him as these two different men, the husband and the watchman, imply that she'd be able to deal with the situation the way she deals with the bloodstained clothes and the "rumours of chases over rooftops" (The Fifth Elephant). As far back as Jingo, there was a general acceptance that she would never have all of him. If a woman thinks this way about her husband, it seems very possible that she would understand, even facilitate the relationship:
At least Sam was home every day.
Well, most days. Every night, anyway.
Well, part most night, certainly.
At least they ate meals together.
Well, most meals.
Well, at least they made a start on most meals.
Well, at least she knew he was never very far away, just somewhere where he was trying to do too much and run too fast and people were trying to kill him.
All in all, she considered, she was jolly lucky.
Ok, those are by no means all the possibilities, but past that I feel that it’s your own moral choice, so ... there’s also AU, OOC, crack!fic, setting it pre-Sybil, and er... character death.
2) Vetinari is far too busy to have a sex life.
This is almost canon, in my opinion. Though he is amused and/or annoyed by many things, and definitely has interests, they usually pertain to the running of the city. In fact, his only mention of anything vaguely romantic is an allusion to Lady Margolotta. This makes him at least interested in females, but considering the woman is a vampire ... Well, let’s just say that an attraction to men would be decidedly tame by comparison.
3) They could get in really big trouble.
Despite the earlier mention of relative social freedom, any word of a relationship could be severely damaging. One of Vetinari’s most distinctive traits is his lack of discernable weakness, and an emotional attachment could easily be exploited. A similar condition applies to Sam, who would probably be very reluctant to add another person the list of his own weaknesses.
4) Vimes’ reference to the “pick-n-mix” nature of Love in The Shades.
A small, but annoying one, that implies that Vimes thinks very traditionally about sex, or not at all. Pterry throws these in every once in a while (e.g. Pteppic’s teacher in Pyramids) just to bug us. Don’t worry, we know that one is always wary of that which one does not understand.
(If anyone can find me the reference, I’ve been going crazy trying to find it.)
Bits to muse upon (i.e. things that wouldn’t fit anywhere else):
1) Vetinari’s careful planning and attention to detail has got to be incredibly useful in bed.
2) Vimes destroying those plans has got to be fun as well.
3) They’re both aging, but Vimes is a rugged watchman-type, and Vetinari is a trained, agile assassin.
4) Leonard invents some really neat toys, and is no position to spread rumours.
5) Vampires. Vetinari’s possible affection for Lady Margolotta vs. Vimes hate of the bloodsucking fiends, black ribbon or no.
6) Names: Sam or Vimes? Vetinari or Havelock? They’ve known each other so long with a wall of formality between them, that an immediate leap into first names seems extreme. Still, a natural progression is possible if there is love there. Or if one of them is drugged up on something.
7) Big Nose = Big- ahem. Heh heh.
8) More as I think of them.
Resources and Recs
The Watch Books: Vimes and Vetinari are featured in Guards! Guards!, Men At Arms , Feet of Clay (my favorite for slashy interaction), Jingo , The Fifth Elephant , The Last Hero (sort of - Vimes is not prominent), and Night Watch. And don’t forget The New Discworld Companion.
Online there’s the L-Space Web, which you probably already know. It’s also an excellent jumping point.
Fic Recs
Individual recs coming soon, including my own (fear!) but for now I’ll just send you to:
The Discworld Fanfiction Archive, (still in progress) where there are some amazing fics to get you started. Or keep you going...
There’s also the Discworld section of Fanfiction.net, while having exiled the NC-17 efforts, is still worth wading through.
There is a Yahoo Group with an archive that often overlaps these two, but is a wonderful place to read, post, find betas, and just discuss your fanfiction with a sympathetic audience. Note: You must be of your country’s legal age to view adult material.
There will be updates. Please comment with suggestions and criticisms, but I beg you to be nice. I’m open to pretty much anything.
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